Transcript Episode 176 – Preventing Burnout for You and Your Team with Elle McPherson on The Prosperous Nonprofit

[00:00:00] Stephanie Skryzowski: Welcome to the Prosperous Nonprofit, the podcast for leaders who are building financially sustainable and impactful nonprofits and changing the world. I’m Stephanie Skrzewski, a chief financial officer and founder and CEO of 100 Degrees Consulting. My personal mission is to empower leaders to better understand their numbers, to grow their impact and their income.

On this show, we talk to people who are leading the nonprofit sector in new ways. Innovative, disruptive, and entrepreneurial ways, creating organizations that fuel their lives, their hearts, and their communities. Let’s dive in.

Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Prosperous Nonprofit. Stephanie Skrzewski, your host here. And today I have a longtime colleague and friend on the show with me and her name is Ellie McPherson. Ellie and I first met, I think it [00:01:00] was in 2011 because I think I had a call with her and I remember the apartment that I was living in when I had this call and we connected over an organization that we were both supporting at the time and she was also doing finance work just like I was.

And we have been in each other’s universe ever since we’ve had a couple of shared clients along the way. And she has since taken a pivot from nonprofit financial management to coaching. So let me tell you a little bit about Ellie and about her coaching certifications and all the things. And I’ll tell you a little bit about what we talked about before we get into the episode.

So Ellie has over 15 years of experience. Experience in coaching, financial management, accounting, fundraising, proposal writing and grant management, and human resources and operations. She’s worked with a range of nonprofits, including Ashoka, AmeriCorps, outward Bound and Heifer International. She’s an MBA in nonprofit management and an MA in sustainable [00:02:00] international development.

from the Heller School of Social Policy and Management at Brandeis University and a BA in political science from Bates College. And I’m not sure I knew about her degree backgrounds, but now that I’m reading this to you all, I’m like, Oh, we have a very similar background as well as I also have an undergrad in political science with a nonprofit management master’s degree.

So that’s why we’re, we’re kindred spirits. Ellie is an associate certified coach with International Coaching Federation, and she received her professional coach certification from the Institute for Professional Excellence in Coaching, and she’s certified in the Energy Leadership Index Assessment Tool.

She’s also a certified Erotic Blueprint Coach, as well as a certified Accelerated Evolution Trainer in Training and RIT 200, Kripalu trained yoga teacher. Okay. So she has a lot of education under her belt. And what we talk about on the show today are really, you know, starting with her experience in burning out inside the nonprofit sector [00:03:00] and what contributed to that.

And, you know, what you might see, listener, happening in your organization. And so Um, we really wanted to highlight some of the factors that contributed to her burnout so that they can become red flags for you. And if you’re seeing these things inside your organization, how to, you know, change them to prevent burnout for yourself and for your team.

We also talked a lot about the poverty mentality of the nonprofit sector and how prevalent it is in this sort of wearing your martyrdom as a badge of honor. Thanks, Aaron. And why that needs to be different and how we can make it different. And then we also talked about, and I love this conversation cause I, again, I feel very aligned with this, this sort of balance between the woo woo and the mindset balancing with the very logical, very practical, very, you know, working inside spreadsheets type of people that they’re both Elliot and I are.

And so I think she’s found a really great balance between the woo woo [00:04:00] and the practical side of. You know, running a nonprofit organization. And that’s exactly what she helps her clients with as a coach. So I’m excited for you to hear this episode. Ellie and I had a great conversation and I feel like, like many of these conversations that I have with our guests, it could have gone on for another hour or two, but without further ado, let’s go talk to Ellie.

Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Prosperous Nonprofit. I’m really excited to have this conversation with my friend Ellie McPherson, Ellie, welcome to the show.

Yes. Um, so we’ve known each other for quite some time. I think we first connected. It was like well over 10 years ago. We had an initial like call when you were involved as a volunteer, I think with an organization that I was working for. Is that right? 

[00:04:55] Elle McPherson: Yeah. I was on a fundraising group in D. C. for buildup. [00:04:59] Stephanie Skryzowski: Yes. [00:05:00] Yes. That’s awesome. I mean, yeah, that was well over 10 years ago. We’ve just connected along the way and in so many different ways. So I would love if you could just tell our listeners a little bit about you and the work that you’re doing right now. We’ll get into like what your journey has looked like.

Like along the way, but tell us a little bit about the work that you do now. Yes. 

[00:05:19] Elle McPherson: Where I am now is more or less I work as a, as a coach. I work with nonprofits and impact organizations and I do coaching for leaders.  [00:05:28] Stephanie Skryzowski: What kind of coaching? Like what is, what does that look like for, especially for our listeners?

Like I’ve had business coaches along the way, um, along my entire journey, but for our listeners that are like a coach, what, what does that mean? Tell us a little bit more. Sure. Thank you. 

[00:05:43] Elle McPherson: So my work in the impact space, I would say, you know, it really depends on what the person is coming to coaching for.

Sometimes they want to work on their confidence or public speaking. Sometimes they want to work on money mindset and how they approach money. Sometimes it’s just kind of like having that. [00:06:00] Sort of like second person to brainstorm and talk things through it, because a lot of the people I work with, they are running like it’s like them and the board, you know, they have a couple employees, they’re in an ED, they have a board, um, they can’t, you know, talk about everything with their spouse.

It’s sort of having that like objective third party, so they can bring, um, Whatever is going on in terms of like making decisions or struggles with an employee, like what do we do with this, this employee that’s not working out, um, fear around what’s happening with the organization or strategic stuff, like it really depends on the person.

Um, so sometimes we’re like digging deep into a specific thing. Like I want to work on my confidence. I want to get better at X, Y, Z. Business related issue, but sometimes it’s, it’s very like goal oriented to a thing. But then I have some clients who I, I meet with like biweekly and I have been for several years and sometimes they come with a specific challenge and sometimes it’s more just like, here’s kind of like where I’m at, kind of having that consistency, I would say it’s really nice because oftentimes I’ll talk to somebody [00:07:00] and we have a tendency to forget the progress that we’ve made, you know, they’ll be like, Oh, I’m stuck in this thing again.

And I could say, Hey, remember this thing two years ago? Like, this is how, like, look how far you’ve come. Right. Or like, You know, based on what you’ve already learned, how is this different, right? So kind of helping people pause sometimes and even see the progress that they’ve made, or just take that pause as well.

Like, especially in today’s world, there’s, it’s like next thing, next thing, next thing, you know, and just having that moment to kind of pause and reflect on like, okay, well, if I was being intentional about this, like, How do I want to approach this conference or how do I want to approach this year’s budget season and having that time out to kind of really get clear on the way that you want to be in how you run your organization in your life.

[00:07:46] Stephanie Skryzowski: I think having a coach like that is so helpful because a lot of times I see non profit leaders, we don’t have any. Anybody else, right? Like you can’t go to your board with some of these things [00:08:00] and you’re not really going to go to your team, like people that report directly to you and helping you think through that.

So it’s sort of having this third party that’s outside of your organization that can remind you of your progress, that can help you work through decisions and things like that is so, so helpful. And like I said, I’ve had business coaches that also definitely help on, you know, Personal stuff as well, but it’s been so helpful and really has helped me.

Um, I don’t know. Yeah. I think make decisions, get clarity on things. What have you seen? Like the results, some of your clients have had that you’ve worked with that are sort of are really transformational. What have you seen? And then you don’t have to name names or like give specifics, but like, what are some of the transformations that you’ve seen?

[00:08:46] Elle McPherson: I think a lot of it’s like, Being able to approach the world and work with more ease, just not beating yourself up so much, or a big one is saying no. Like, I love helping people learn how to say no. [00:09:00] Um, that’s a huge one. Um, just like, no, I don’t, like, I don’t want to take on this extra project. I don’t want to, you know, Maybe make my organization bigger than it is, or I need to say no to all these small things so I can say yes to the things that I actually want to do, right?

Like, I feel like there can be a lot of pressure in the nonprofit space to kind of do more, do more, do more, right? And that can take somebody away from kind of maybe where they originally started out from, like what their initial mission was. So things like that. Stopping people kind of realize when they’re getting caught in like the, the pattern of like, I got to do, do, like I say this a lot in the nonprofit space.

It’s like, I got to do, do, do, do, do, and losing sight of like, even why I’m doing it. Like, what’s the bigger picture here? So I see a success when a client can learn to recognize their own patterns. Yeah, I’m coaching them in the context of their, of that moment of that problem in the business, but that’s just kind of like an entry point to bring more clarity to like the whole way in which they operate in the world.

Seeing their own patterns, learning how to make different [00:10:00] choices, like that’s what I feel very successful when I see a client become more self aware in that way. And that’s something that they can then take forward to like everything they do, whether it’s a business, their personal life, everything. 

[00:10:11] Stephanie Skryzowski: And it sounds like some of those things that you’re talking about regarding having boundaries and saying no and, um, sort of breaking away from the constant need to be doing really could be helping prevent burnout as well.

Because I think that all of those things adding up when we have no boundaries, when we continue to grow for the sake of growing, um, that all leads to burnout. And I know you have your own experience of burnout. Inside the nonprofit sector as well. And I would love if you could tell us a little bit about that.

[00:10:44] Elle McPherson: Yeah, I burned out, so I know how that goes. Um, yeah, so it’s been about, I was just reflecting on this, it’s been about seven years since I, like, left my sort of, like, normal W 2, 9 to 5. Life and went on a different path, but yeah, I, I essentially burned out. I was [00:11:00] working, you, you get this, right. I was working as a finance manager for a nonprofit in DC and just the, the stress of the financial, like being the one that was managing all the finance to reorganization.

It just over time kind of got to me. And, you know, back then I didn’t have the tools that I have now in terms of, like, managing my own stress and being able to get some perspective on things. Um, you know, it was a small organization. We didn’t have a lot of resources. I didn’t have someone supporting me.

So, part of what I love now about, um, Being a coach is I’m, I’ve been on the other side. I know what it’s like to work in nonprofit. I know that the stress, I know the different issues, right? I know how unique it could be to have these, you know, really specific funding requirements and like certain things that don’t even exist in the for profit world.

And so I really like being able to support people because yeah, I was like in those shoes. I know what it’s like. 

[00:11:56] Stephanie Skryzowski: You’ve mentioned a few of them, but Just for our [00:12:00] listeners, if they’re like, yeah, things feel really stressful or maybe they’re going into, you know, uh, potentially a new environment, a new organization, what are some of the issues that you saw in the nonprofit space that sort of contributed to your burnout or some of the issues that you see?

I think that would be helpful to maybe identify some of those that our listeners can say, Oh yeah, okay, this is something that I see at our organization. How can we work on this so that our team does not get burned out? What are some of those issues that you’ve seen the, the contributing factors? 

[00:12:38] Elle McPherson: Just off the top of my head, like definitely saw this in more than one of the projects that I worked for.

You know, I think the board means well, but sometimes most of the time the board doesn’t really understand like the day to day complexities of what’s going on and how the organization really functions day to day. And I think they’re, you know, they’re doing their best, but sometimes that [00:13:00] disconnect between the day to day operations of an organization and what the board is asking for can be really challenging.

Lack of unrestricted funding. It’s a huge one. Um, like, as a finance person, I can’t tell you how many hours, you know, I might, I would have, I might have spent in trying to, like, manage restricted versus unrestricted funding, or not having the funds to pay for, to pay for the things like support, right? Like, To have you, I’m a big believer in like, I used to work in operations and finance.

I’m a big believer in having those systems in place so that everything else can run smoothly. But when you don’t have the funding to get like the latest fundraising software or to invest in support and training for your staff, then of course everything is going to be just harder because you don’t have the core systems in place.

So having that funding and support to kind of keep the core running, I think is huge. And sometimes there’s not, um, Understanding in the space of why that funding, you know, everyone needs programs. And yeah, you need those core functions running and [00:14:00] those core people happy. I think sometimes like mission creep, mission drift could be really stressful.

You know, you, everyone thinks they’re working on something and then there’s like a board meeting or The CEO has a new visionary idea and all of a sudden everything you’ve been doing for the last six months shifts, right? It’s like, oh, now we have to redo everything because we’re going in a new direction, uh, because of someone’s idea.

That can cause a lot of burnout, right? Like, oh, I was working so hard towards this thing and now we’re starting over again. I’ve definitely seen that happen. I think sometimes it’s like the pressure for bigger, more, better, you know, like 10x, 10x, like bigger, bigger, more. That can be stressful too, but gosh, yeah, I could go on.

Yeah. 

[00:14:43] Stephanie Skryzowski: There’s a lot. Yes. So that is true. So if our listeners are like, Oh, I’m seeing that quite a bit at our organization or like, yeah, we’ve checked a lot of those boxes. Yeah. Maybe it’s time to sort of think about some of those. So that you can make sure that your, your team, your staff, yourself, um, [00:15:00] don’t get burned out because we can’t do the work that we need to do if we are, you know, operating on a, you know, a shoestring of the energy that, that we could be bringing to the table.

So the other thing I wanted to chat about, we were chatting a little bit about this before we started hitting record is this sort of poverty mentality or scarcity mindset. Inside the nonprofit sector, and I would love if you could talk a little bit more about that, since I know that, you know, money mindset is some of the work that you do with your clients as well.

Like, what do you mean when you’re talking about poverty mindset inside the nonprofit sector? And how do you help your clients sort of shift their mindset? Into, you know, a more abundant mindset. 

[00:15:44] Elle McPherson: Yes. We had the scarcity mindset. I mean, I was running them, running the finances and the nonprofits that I worked for.

And looking back, I definitely had that scarcity mindset, right? Like questioning when expenses came in, Oh, do we really need to spend that much on XYZ? [00:16:00] Um, and perhaps inadvertently and putting, you know, putting that pressure then. Putting more pressure on everybody, the fundraiser. Well, like we really, could we really afford that ticket to that conference?

You know, like you have to spend money to earn money. You have to get out there and talk to donors if you want. And there’s that constant sense of like, can we really afford this? Like that kind of, I probably was inadvertently putting that pressure on the rest of the team, which then creates a more stressful environment for the fundraisers and for the CEO and.

So I think in some ways also because I was the one, you know, doing the cashflow planning and sometimes looking ahead and being like, ah, I don’t know if we’re going to make payroll in three months. It was stressful. Um, or, you know, sometimes a grant, you think the next tranche is going to come on a certain date and then it doesn’t.

And then that just, it just creates a lot of stress. So I think there’s that sense of like, Yeah, we can’t really make this investment in like certain systems or staff trainings or all of that creates just a level of stress in the organization that, you know, stress is not conducive to creativity. [00:17:00] Stress is not conducive to new ideas and getting out there and doing things different.

It kind of puts people in a bit of like a survival mindset. And when I look back on, on that, I think I was definitely in that. And part of the reason why I burned out and left, you know, in the last year since, as I’ve done a lot of different coach trainings and traveled and met different people, that’s really opened my mind to like, I didn’t even know the idea, like the idea of abundance versus poverty mindset was a thing.

So now, a lot of what I’m working with clients who want to work on their money mindset, a lot of it is, Becoming more aware of kind of where do these mindsets come from. Oftentimes it starts with like our family of origin, our parents, or our caretakers. So I’ll often have my clients do some reflection work on like, okay, just first identifying where, what are my money mindset issues now?

And how might that be inhibiting me in like my professional life or my personal life? Like a big one is enough, right? Like a big one that comes up in our society. Is it enough? Do I have [00:18:00] enough? Well, what is enough, right? That’s a hard thing to define. As if like there was some number that would provide this, because it comes down to safety, right?

At some level, like the root chakra money is a sense of security and safety that we’re all looking for. So kind of getting clear on what’s, you know, where is the block and then doing some reflection on where did these ideas come from. Oftentimes family of origin stuff and beginning to realize like, oh, that’s, that’s not me.

That’s my mom’s voice. This, you know, you know, and how is my mom’s voice, you know, and her issues and her stuff from a different time coming up in my life now. So once you can kind of like see it for what it is, like, that’s my mom, that’s my dad, that’s my grandmother, you know, that’s, you know, I don’t know, it’s Reagan economics or wherever you got your ideas from, when you can separate it from yourself and you have a more clear relationship with it, that it’s easier to be like, okay, well, that’s not, you know, that’s not my situation anymore.

Like I don’t need to keep that voice in my head, or this is the ways that those [00:19:00] ideas have served me. But now these are the ways in which that’s becoming a bit toxic or holding me back. And I get to redefine, like a lot of it is redefining your own narrative around how do I want to be in relationship to money in abundance.

What’s the life I want? Like, how do I want to design my life or my organization? How do I want to run it? And putting yourself back at choice. 

[00:19:21] Stephanie Skryzowski: I do think this is particularly harder because I think that anybody inside or outside the nonprofit sector probably has some money mindset stuff to deal with, to think through.

But I feel like working in a nonprofit, it’s sort of exacerbated because it’s like we’re in this environment where we’re trying to put every penny towards the mission. So we shouldn’t want More money for ourselves. We shouldn’t want to make more money. Um, and I know I have struggled with that in the past.

It’s like, yeah, I want to do good work. I want to work for a nonprofit and also like I want a 401k and [00:20:00] to be able to retire and to be able to, you know, not have to. Penny pinch when I’m at the grocery store, like I want to have money for myself too. And so does it feel like particularly harder inside the nonprofit sector?

Because every single day we’re getting these messages, like we have to be so conscious of our resources and everything is, you know, we’re scrimping and we’re saving yet at the same time, like I want money for myself. I don’t know. It just feels even harder inside nonprofits. 

[00:20:28] Elle McPherson: Absolutely. I would a hundred percent agree.

I think it’s. We have money mindset stuff and abundance or scarcity mindset is like just society. And then I think it’s like 10 times within the non profit sector. Because there’s that constant messaging of, yeah, everything. Like even just the way the 990 is, right? How many cents to the dollar are going into programming versus operations and fundraising.

So it’s just like so baked in. Um, And we all know where, like, those are percentages and it’s, it’s not really realistic. But still, like, that’s the way the world’s looking at it. [00:21:00] And yeah, so there is that mindset of everything should go to programs. And then also, like, at times, like, martyrdom, like, toxicity that can happen.

Like, oh, and that’s some of what I’m working with people is kind of, like, help them maybe realize. Like, In some way, are you getting off or are you benefiting from holding on to that identity? Like identity is a big piece of work with people in coaching. And sometimes there’s this identity piece like, yes, and I’ve had to struggle with that coming out of the nonprofit sector and being a coach.

Sometimes like the identity of being insurmountable, the identity of being like, Oh, poor me. I can’t afford nice things because I work for this mission oriented organization. But at some point, like that becomes a toxic, you know, like I, Get something by having that role of like the one who gives all the time, you know, it gives me a sense of meaning, let’s say, or purpose in my life that makes somehow I’m not getting just On my own and, and all of you know, being of service is great, but at some point if you’re kind of [00:22:00] using that to avoid your own stuff, you know, I don’t think that creates a healthy situation at all.

And I see that a fair amount in the, in the service nonprofit industry and I’m generalizing here, but in my experience, at least. The nonprofit sector is has more women employees than other sectors, and I think this is also something that affects women more than men in general that kind of like selfless I need to be selfless I need to give that kind of mother and martyr complex.

But that can lead to a lot of resentment. A lot of, you know, a lot of not so good things so. Bringing some awareness to how that might be playing out in your own life or in the culture of your organization. And then flipping that to what you’re saying, it’s like, yeah, I can make a good living for myself.

I can do well. And I can do something that’s, that serves the world because you know, the younger people going into the nonprofit sector, if they’re thinking, okay, I have to sacrifice to do good in the world. [00:23:00] Like what, what kind of inspiring message is that? Mm hmm. 

[00:23:04] Stephanie Skryzowski: Yeah, I’ve been thinking about this for a really long time.

Cause I think back to like the early days in my nonprofit career. And I saw the people that were not making very much money and wearing it almost as a badge of honor, like a sense of pride. It’s like, yeah, I make nothing, but like, look at this amazing work I’m doing. Yeah. I have an apartment with like 15 roommates and it’s.

Good. Because like, I’m doing this amazing work and I’m like, I don’t want that. Like, I don’t want 15 roommates. I want to have a 401k with like some money in it. Like, and then I felt really guilty. I was like, Oh, I’m not, I’m not like a very good person, I guess, because I want money. Like, I want to be able to go on vacation and also, you know, do good work.

And so, um, yeah, it was almost this like sense of shame for me because I was like, I’m not good enough. Like I’m not [00:24:00] martyring myself enough because I, you know, want to have a savings account. So yeah, it’s really interesting. And do you think that like, if overall as a sector, We just paid our people better.

I mean, it would take a lot of change, right? There’s a lot that would need to happen. Um, but like if we just paid our people better, a normal wage, more than a living wage, a thriving wage, would some of this go away, do you think? 

[00:24:30] Elle McPherson: I would hope so. But I don’t think it’s like, it’s because there are nonprofits that pay really well, right?

I mean, there’s some that aren’t, but there are some that pay very well. But some of it’s also just in the culture. Like there’s a, there’s in the culture, there is this idea like, Oh, but if you’re helping people, if you’re a nurse, if you’re, if you’re a healer, if you’re a helper. that it should somehow be sacrificing.

And to me, I’m making like a bigger generalization here, but I think some of that goes back to just like patriarchy in general. Like, like it’s the women’s, it’s, if there’s like a [00:25:00] woman’s role to serve, to help, to kind of be at service to everybody, and that’s sort of like a, Not as valued in terms of money role.

So I think it’s, it’s also like a larger societal issue of like, which, what roles in society are valued. 

[00:25:18] Stephanie Skryzowski: We have some work to do. Like, okay, how do we fix this? Um, this is exactly what I’m, what I’m writing my book about. And every time I have a conversation, I’m like, and we got to talk about that, like, we need a chapter about this.

Oh my gosh, it’s going like so much deeper because I, I really do believe that you can do good work and live a prosperous and thriving life. And I feel like that’s not the story that we have been told or that, you know, it’s Not even directly told, but that’s not the story that we’ve seen. Oh yeah, this is so interesting.

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How do you [00:27:00] sort of balance the like woo woo side of what you do with like, you are a finance person. We have worked together directly on clients before. So I know you are also very like meticulous and detail oriented and this is the work that you’ve done for a long time. So how do you sort of balance the woo woo side of things with like the very practical, very logical operational mind that I know you have?

[00:27:25] Elle McPherson: That’s a good question. It’s been a practice. I can find myself occasionally getting sucked back into, like, wanting to make a spreadsheet and wanting to analyze it and, you know, figure out all the things and I, because I, but I realized it because, uh, it’s like kind of a comfortable for me, you know, like my comfort zone is sort of like putting the numbers in the spreadsheet and seeing everything.

And I’ve had to realize that what’s not so comfortable for me is kind of more of like. Having like the faith and the trust that things are going to work out, right? And I think those are, it can be two, two extremes where it’s like, I’m going to analyze the cash flow like every single week, you know, and [00:28:00] spend like 12 hours deep in the numbers doing cash flow versus like, Oh, it’ll be fine.

Everything works out just total go with the flow, right? Like either of those are a bit of an extreme, but for me, I think I’ve realized sometimes my, my tendency to want to go back into the safety of the numbers and analyze. Right. Well, those 12 hours that I spent doing that, I could have, are probably a way of hiding from like spending 12 hours going out and doing the thing that’s harder, which is making sales calls, which is pitching myself, which is presenting myself to people, right?

Like, That would probably be a way better use of my time to bring in funding than to obsess over the funding that I have that I feel like isn’t enough. If you’re the visionary, like a lot of people I work with, especially like more like the entrepreneur or CEO, visionary types, they’re really good at like, it’s going to work out.

It’s fine. You know, but, but there’s almost like an avoidance of reality to like a bit of a ostrich head in the sand. So I think all of us. Are somewhere on that [00:29:00] spectrum and it’s realizing, okay, I’m more comfortable on this side of things, where am I doing that to kind of avoid something I don’t like, what am I avoiding?

And then there’s a little bit of work to do and like, okay, you don’t have to completely change who you are, but on the stuff that you’re avoiding, what are you not looking at there? And that’s a bit of a growth edge, like whether it’s becoming more out there and more visionary and more faith based. And I said, I don’t mean religious faith, but just like having kind of faith that things are going to work, which has been my growth is more.

Like my trajectory over the last couple years has been much more of like, okay, yeah, like things do work out and having more of that vision and leaning into like what could be than analyzing what is. 

[00:29:41] Stephanie Skryzowski: Mm hmm. That’s so good. I feel like analysis is a place that a lot of us can just be like very comfortable in.

And so when you were talking about. I think this is like a perfect example. I can think of so many examples of my own life where it’s like, yeah, you’re just head down in the [00:30:00] analysis of a situation that you probably can’t change at this point anyway, instead of just taking action towards that next best thing.

And a lot of times, like you said, there’s fear around that. There’s fear around taking that action. And so that’s why we stick ourselves and we stay in the analysis because it’s scary to go take the action. But at the end of the day, Having the faith that the action is going to lead to the result that you want, that’s a way better use of your time than, you know, churning away in spreadsheets for hours upon hours.

I think that’s so huge. And I think Your point about identifying like, okay, well, what is keeping me here? What is keeping me in the analysis versus the, the taking action is a step that people don’t take. And that’s why we stay stuck is because we’re not in that sort of open minded exploratory type mindset.

How do you get people to think like that? Because I feel like that right there is, I mean, that can open up so much if [00:31:00] you just, open your mind and you have this sort of open, willing, exploratory mindset, but that’s not natural to people, I think. So how do you, how do you get them there? 

[00:31:13] Elle McPherson: So two main ways.

One is like the way I, the way I coach is through helping people figure out where’s the emotional charge, where am I, where is there some stuckness or contraction? And we start there. Okay. You’re feeling sad about this. You’re feeling stressed about that. And just kind of going, you know, going to the pain point, feeling in, literally feel the feels, right?

You got to feel it to heal it. Go into that, that stress, that contraction, whatever’s going on, help them release the stress. Because when you’re, when you’re stressed, you can’t think very clearly. You can’t, it’s very hard to have bigger creative ideas when you’re, when you’re stuck in the stress point. So you go in, you kind of release the stress point, we, we work through it.

And then on the other side of that, oh, okay, now I have like more choice. I can think clearly, I can think more creatively. Oh, I hadn’t, I forgot that. You know, this, I met this guy [00:32:00] three years ago at this lunch place and they had mentioned they were interested in me, right? Like, once that stress clears, then there’s way more possibility and there’s way more ideas and then it can be, then you can get like more strategic about, okay, here’s, here’s what I want to do.

But when you’re just stuck in the stress. That that creativity and that open mindset of possibility isn’t there. So a lot of it is just how people get back to that like natural place of creativity and mindset and or and possibility that like most of us had when we were kids, right when you Asked a little kid.

What do you want to be when they grow up? And they said president, you know, they didn’t think about all the like improbabilities of that So I think a lot of it’s how people train them how to work through stress to get back to be able to think More open mindedly and the other thing that I do a lot of as a coach is working with people around their patterns Like, you know, we all have sort of like Habitual patterns of thinking and, and sort of, I call it the rollercoaster.

The rollercoaster is sort of like the thing that, the kind of habitual pattern of behavior [00:33:00] that we may do that we don’t even realize we do. So I use the Enneagram a lot in my coaching because I, I think the Enneagram is really awesome and help people realize their patterns based on their type and. I had a client who, um, their pattern was over work.

They would start getting stressed and then they would go down this rabbit hole of like drinking way too much coffee and then like spending, spending up, staying up all night and just like obsessing, you know, that was They were type four. That was their thing. I was like, everything has to be so intense.

And as we became more clear, clear, and now they started to realize, like, the ways in which they did that. And sort of, um, like the early warning signs of, like, the roller coaster coming up, you know, it’s like, Oh, I haven’t, you know, I haven’t worked out as much. I haven’t done my meditation in the morning.

Like, what are the things that are starting to get a little wonky in my life? And then this, so I’m about to get on the real roller coaster and go down that. That cycle again that loop and the idea is when you become more aware of [00:34:00] that pattern, and you could sort of see it, then it’s the chance to say, actually, you know what, like that was the old way I used to handle these, these situations would be to go down that rapid hole overworking, or just like shut down and not talk or run away because I don’t want to conflict or whatever someone’s pattern is, and then when you could sort of see it happening in real time, and there’s that moment of like, okay, take a deep breath or you need to do to kind of come back to like, me, who I really, who I really want to be in this moment, and not just my default kind of behavior pattern, and make a different choice that’s actually going to get me

[00:34:36] Stephanie Skryzowski: And that’s why it’s so helpful to have a coach because a coach can see the patterns and can see things that you don’t and can help point those out to you so that you can discover these things, identify the patterns and break the patterns. Let’s see, was there more around like balancing the sort of the woo woo and the really logical?

I know that was the original question I asked, but did [00:35:00] we, did we bring that to a close? I can’t remember. 

[00:35:03] Elle McPherson: So I’m saying like my default has been the analysis and I can still find myself occasionally like going, I just did my taxes, you know, I can still find myself like going, going back into that. And then I have to remind myself, like, is this really the best use of my time?

And then for me, the woo woo has been. Opening myself up to reading different books about these different topics and this idea that I think is actually really, really helpful in the changemaker space of like possibility, right? We want to change the world. We want to make the world a better place. But if we’re so focused on what’s like not working and all the problems, that’s stressful and it’s demotivating.

So really cultivating, working on like practices and mindset and reading inspirational things or whatever it is for you, like the more you can bring yourself to change. Like, that’s my practice, memorizing meditation, or exercise, or reading inspirational things, like, everything, to come back to that, this is like the woo woo, to come back to that more like high vibe state, right, [00:36:00] where inside, I’m vibing, or you know, however you want to call it.

in that place where I truly believe that anything is possible. And when I’m in that place, I’m full of ideas. I’m full of enthusiasm. Like I want to go out and do all these things. And, you know, then day to day sometimes creeps back in and I can feel myself getting more hung up on like, Oh, this thing didn’t work.

And the email didn’t go through, you know, all those little like idiosyncrasies of admin and life, you know? So my practice that I’m trying to work on is like, how do I keep bringing myself back, bringing my bad self back? Like one of the daily practices. One of the bigger things I do in my life. That keep me connected to that state of being in possibility because that’s where the magic happens.

That’s where my ideas come from That’s where you know, idiosyncrasies were like I thought of this thing and then the next day that person emails me. 

[00:36:51] Stephanie Skryzowski: Yes Yes and I think though that you the key words that you said was um, or the key phrase was like [00:37:00] Bringing yourself back to it again and again. So this is not like a um Okay, cool.

I’ve checked the box. Now I have the, like the right mindset and now all these things are going to happen. No, this is like constant work and a constant process to keep bringing yourself back because it’s really easy to get out of that. And I’ve just been feeling that recently and I’m like, Oh yeah, I just feel like I’m kind of coasting recently and not in that sort of high vibe state like you were just talking about.

And I realized it’s because I’ve dropped a couple of these daily practices around journaling that I had that I haven’t done for a few weeks. I’m like, Oh, well, that’s why I’m not feeling great. And I’m not feeling that energy is because I’ve dropped the daily practices that were helping bring me that energy.

And so I’m like, okay, we’re, we’re going to get back to it. So it’s constant work, but it’s, it’s worth it. It’s so worth it in my experience. 

[00:37:54] Elle McPherson: And it’s like these little things that. You know, we spend all this money on like fancy coaches [00:38:00] and retreats and trainings and stuff like that. And, but sometimes it’s like those little daily things, right?

Like I call them with my clients, I call them guardrails. What are the guardrails that keep you in that like open minded state of possibility where you where everything just flows a bit easier. And some of that is probably like nutrition, how well you eat, exercise, you know, for every person has their own kind of like ideal lifestyle.

level. I have one client who doesn’t, he doesn’t swim three times a week. It’s just like nothing works as well in his life. Like, and he knows that, you know, so getting those three swims in the week is like, it’s a priority for everything in his life. Um, for me, it’s like doing my morning meditation, doing yoga, nature time.

Some people it’s reading the Bible in the morning, you know, each person kind of needs to figure out like, what are the key practices. The amount of sleep that I have that kind of keep everything running on the schedule. And then, and that’s kind of like the daily practice. And then, in addition, you know, what are the, what are the things that kind of refill my cup.

Whether it’s like a retreat or vacation [00:39:00] or reading different spiritual texts, or I know it, you know, working with a coach, like what are those things that you can schedule on a more monthly or quarterly basis, give you that added boost of inspiration and excitement and like, yes, I’m going to keep doing this.

[00:39:15] Stephanie Skryzowski: Yeah, exactly. Um, and I love that you just listed off a bunch of different things because it really does look so different for everyone. Um, there’s no formula for exactly what is going to give you that energy. It’s, it’s different for everybody. Um, for me, it’s It’s running and it’s my journaling practice and it’s quiet time, which I don’t have a lot of with two small children.

And so I feel myself being like feeling really off if I’m on and with people from the moment I wake up to the moment I go to bed, like I need time by myself, quiet every single day or things are not, I just, I don’t feel great. So yeah, it’s different, different for everybody. Before we wrap up, I have [00:40:00] two more questions.

One was you mentioned books and I read a lot. Are there any particular, and I know a lot of our listeners love our book recommendations. Are there any books that you like, swear by, live by, that you just, you love and you recommend to everybody? 

[00:40:17] Elle McPherson: Yeah, the one that I was sort of thinking of actually as we were talking about the woo woo is this book called The Science of Creating Miracles, which I feel like should be required reading for non profit people because for the last couple years I’ve been learning more about what we call like the woo woo, right?

And there’s a science part of me that’s like, okay, manifestation, like, I like the idea, but I wasn’t like totally sold on it. But then I read this book, The Science of Creating Miracles, and it’s by a neuroscientist, Dr. Larry Farwell. And that book kind of brought it all together for me, because he talks about neuroscience.

He talks about the nervous system. He talks about quantum physics and kind of brings it all together. And this idea of like, you know, when someone’s really smart, they can explain things that are really, difficult and make it sound simple. I think that’s what he does in this book. [00:41:00] So he brings together all these different concepts, really to this idea of like anything is possible.

It might be statistically improbable. But anything is possible. And when you elevate your consciousness, and whether that’s through, you know, meditation or whatever your practices are, when you bring your conscious and you can kind of elevate your consciousness and connect more with like that state of a problem, that state of possibility, then anything is possible.

And I think for the changemaker space, that idea, Yeah. If anything is possible, it doesn’t have to be so effort, it doesn’t have to be like, I have to like, you know, push up the hill so much, it’s more like, can I create that internal state where anything is possible in my life is really powerful because it’s like, oh, it doesn’t have to be so hard.

We don’t have to be constantly making like this idea of like David vs. Goliath battle that kind of gets glorified in the non profit space. 

[00:41:53] Stephanie Skryzowski: Mm hmm. Yeah. Oh, I love that. I just looked up on Amazon and it’s, yeah, the science of creating miracles, neuroscience, [00:42:00] quantum physics, and living the life of your dreams is the, uh, the subtitle.

I love that. That’s awesome. Cause I’ve read some books about mindset and things that are very sciency and I can’t like, I can’t get into them honestly. It’s too sciency for me. So I’m excited to check this one out because I like the science behind it, but I can’t get into a read that feels too much like a science textbook.

[00:42:20] Elle McPherson: Yeah. Yeah. This is. Like from a scientist, but written in a very accessible way.  [00:42:25] Stephanie Skryzowski: Yeah, that’s awesome. I need that. Um, fantastic. Well, I have added that to my reading list and my last question for you is what does a prosperous nonprofit look like to you?  [00:42:36] Elle McPherson: I like that question. To me, it would be one where The next source of funding isn’t a stress.

There’s, you know, there’s a solid committed group of donors and a diverse group of donors, whether it’s individuals, foundations or other large organizations, maybe government funding, but there’s enough diversity that no one’s worried about one falling [00:43:00] through where all of the employees have, like, Not only the time off to recharge themselves, but they have the resources they need at work to get their job done well in terms of just the basic operations and systems.

They have time for like, you know, employee lunches and retreats and times to create that social cohesion in the organization that also really helps counterbalance stress and burnout. That they are doing the work they want to do in the world and getting, you know, getting the results and touching the lives.

That is the mission and feeling really connected to that mission, but not at the expense of like. Yeah. 

[00:43:43] Stephanie Skryzowski: I love it. That’s fantastic. I just, you know, our listeners who’ve listened to all the episodes, I love asking that question to all of our guests because I get a different answer every time and they’re all like, perfect.

I love them. This has been awesome. Amazing. Um, I hope that [00:44:00] we’ll see each other at OC in the fall to, uh, continue to this conversation. But for now, um, where can our listeners learn more about you and your work? 

[00:44:10] Elle McPherson: Yeah, I’m on LinkedIn. My name is Ellie McPherson. I also have a website, zestso. com. Those are the two main places. [00:44:19] Stephanie Skryzowski: Awesome. Yeah. I see you. You’re, you’re pretty active on LinkedIn. So definitely, um, check Ellie out over there. Awesome. Well, Ellie, thanks so much for chatting with me today. It’s been great to catch up and yeah, I just appreciate all that you’re bringing to the nonprofit sector with your coaching. So thanks for being here. [00:44:37] Elle McPherson: And thank you for doing this podcast and sharing different voices.  [00:44:42] Stephanie Skryzowski: Before you go, I just want to thank you for being here. To access our show notes and bonus content, visit 100degreespodcast. com. That’s 100degreespodcast. com. And I’ll see you next [00:45:00] time.